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Antichrist Comes First – 2 Thessalonians 2, (Tim Warner).

October 16, 2016

I don’t always agree in every detail of Tim Warner’s Prophetic model, but in general we are both Post-Trib, and Historic Pre-Mill. This is a good read generally and follows the Greek grammar of 2 Thess. 2: 1 especially.

  1. Wait a minute. How can you be post trib AND dispensational.

    • Very easy, I am generally Progressive Dispensational, and Post-Trib on the Rapture! I can see you have NOT done much reading here? See the two classic books (both written in 1993): Darrell Bock and Craig Blaising’s, Progressive Dispensationalism ; and Robert Saucy’s, The Case For Progressive Dispendationalism. Bock is a Dallas guy also.

  2. Surely and in my opinion, one simply MUST see something of the Dispensational model in the NT revelation! See 1 Cor. 10: 32 to start with. And note N.T, Wright’s “Supersessionism” is quite a mess!

  3. And btw Greg, until you get a biblical and working theological grip on Eschatology, you cannot have a level overall true biblical theology, of course in my opinion! We are right in the middle of seeing National Israel in her land, and the Second Coming is prophetically central! WW III could be sooner than we realize also! (Look at Russia today, Ezek. 38-39) Not to mention the grave Gentile Apostasy today!

    • Its time for the Reformed to get in the prophetic ball-game!!! Even old Gordon Clark was Pre-Mill!

      • Greg: I did NOT think you would have much to say here? Just hit and run! THIS subject (of biblical eschatology) is one of the weakest for the modern or today’s Reformed. One thing is certain, the old Post-Mill position is dead! Of course I speak generally, for there are “some” Reformed that see the Progressive Dispensational position, but they are few sadly.

  4. It wasn’t a hit n run. It was an honest question and I have been unbelievably busy. Seriously. I meant no offense.

    • Greg: I don’t take offense at all, but it is rather sad to say the least, that the general nature of the Modern Reformed Church is still following older and even dead theological ideas in eschatology! “Israel” as a nation (since) 1948 is right in our face, and of course how can we get around Zechariah chapters 12-13-14! Noting especially Zech. 13: 8-9, with chap. 14! And of course the Book of Revelation! WE are staring at the END! And surely only a “Dispensational” (Progressive or ongoing) makes any biblical and theological sense! My position at least, with btw many more Dallas Seminary guys these days!

      * I would also recommend reading Charles Ryrie’s Revised and Expanded version of his book: Dispensationalism (1995,2007/ Moody). Some good things there! Though for sure Ryrie does try to hold to the older Dispensationalism, which I don’t believe can be held!

      • And though we cannot hold to the older Dispensational positions, like a Pre-Trib Rapture, the general ideas of National Israel being central, and having the Covenant/covenants first toward them is foremost! We Gentiles only come into their blessings, but we never supersede their full promises! (And let me say right here, the USA or Britain is NOT seen straight-up in Bible Prophecy!)

      • And this is again for you Greg, but I am generally done with most modern Calvinist ministries! (I am surely Neo-Calvinist, on soteriology and grace). But I respect much in R.C. Sproul for example, but on eschatology, he is simply out-to-lunch! Though I do have and use The Reformation Study Bible (ESV), where he is General Editor. But I am NOT a fan of his son! And as I have written, I do like John Frame and Vern Poythress, though they too have generally missed it on eschatology! Yes, with the Gentile Apostasy we are seeing in the visible church, we simply MUST get a good grip on where the Church is at today. And generally the modern Reformed are asleep on eschatology and modern Israel. Just factual to my mind!

  5. “(I am surely Neo-Calvinist, on soteriology and grace)”

    What does this mean?

    *Soteriology is just a theological word for salvation.

    • Well, “neo” means, in a new way, or modified to degree. And Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was no doubt the first to use the term: Neo-Calvinist, and he was of course Dutch Reformed (Netherlands). In our time both John Frame and Vern Poythress use the term (as no doubt many others), and I somewhat follow their Reformed ideas, at least to Calvinism and culture therein. But generally it is a new approach to Calvinism, that always sees Jesus as Lord in every area of life! It also challenges Reformed formalism, and Kuyper also wrote about the need of worship in the Reformed churches of his time. Myself as an Anglican Reformed, the need for these aspects are surely apparent in our day of apostasy! See btw Abraham Kuyper, Our Worship, edited by Harry Boonstra (the essence of the book was first published by Kuyper in 1911 in Dutch). Boonstra is of course the theological librarian emeritus at Calvin College and Seminary, Grand Rapids, Michigan.

      • Btw too, I do NOT believe Calvin (or St. Paul) presented the Atonement of Christ as “limited”, but saw it as fully “sufficient” for all the sins of man or humanity, (John 1: 29). But, it is surely efficient or “efficacious” for the election (elect-ones) of grace alone!

        *And note the term “common grace” is NOT saving grace, but God’s general grace or composition/composite (harmonious whole) for humanity. These are some of Kuyper’s thoughts!

  6. “We confess that “grace”, that is, the grace of regeneration, does not come through baptism as the instrument, but grace is presumed to operate along with baptism and baptism is only the sign and seal of grace.” (Kuyper, ‘Our Worship’, page 228 (Eerdmans, 2009)

    *And this is of course the affect of Augustine on Kuyper and the Reformed Church.

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